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Essence
28 Mar 2010, 07:26 AM
Having not seen one before, I thought I would write this guide to hammer building. It will include the basics of building a WW hammer, from tribe choice right the way through to factors to consider when actually sending it at a WW.

Obviously, hammer building is a personal thing; everyone will have different opinions and preferences, but there are some essentials that are applicable to every hammer builder.

Before You Start


Catapults or rams?

The first thing to do when planning a hammer is to decide what kind of hammer you are making. Whilst you can make a mixed siege hammer, choosing either catapults or rams is much more efficient. Ideally, you want to work together within an alliance to ensure that there are enough of each - a cata hammer without a ram hammer will never do as much damage.


Tribe?

Once you have decided whether you want to build catapults or rams, you can then choose which tribe to be. Obviously, you can build a good hammer using any of the tribes, but each have their own drawbacks.


Teutons

Extremely wheat-hungry hammers
Most efficient tribe for a ram hammer
Cheapest to train

Gauls

Poor as a ram hammer
Quick troops
Poorest off points

Romans

Most expensive to train
Most efficient tribe for a cata hammer
Low wheat upkeep


Which troops?

Now this is a point that is continually argued about amongst hammer builders; which troops should make up the hammer?

Personally I am of the view that upkeep and training costs should not be a factor in choosing what hammer to build; for a hammer builder, the only resource that is finite is time, and therefore one should pick the troops that yield the highest offence points:training time ratio, which are as follows:


Romans; Imperians and Equites Caesaris
Gauls; Swordsmen and Haeduans
Teutons; Macemen and Teutonic Knights

Of course, there are many different views to this, but these combinations will yield the highest offence power possible for your hammer.

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 07:27 AM
Starting

Unless you plan on funding your hammer through constant raiding, it is vital to get a good cropper capital to build a hammer. Ideally it should be a 125% 15c at least. Whether you use gold or not, this is essential. If you don't use gold, you will need a cropper with high level fields (18+) to feed your hammer. If you do use gold, you need to get the fields up in the cropper quickly, so you can npc to fund your queues. To get the best cropper possible, you will need to raid constantly at the beginning of the game, and aim to settle by the end of week one at the latest.

Once you have chosen your capital, you then have to decide where to build your hammer. If your spawn village is in a good location, and near to the cropper, it can be a good choice as you can build it up and start building your hammer as soon as possible. If there is no good cropper near your spawn, or you'd rather build further out, where it is safer, it is worth looking at a 9c or 15c to settle, and build your hammer in, as it will avoid you going into minus too heavily whilst you move troops to you capital for storage.

To build a decent hammer, you will need a fairly large account, with a decent number of villages, or a lot of help, so get those town halls up fast, and try to run grand balls constantly!


When to start training?

The first queue you should try to keep running 24/7 has to be siege. Whilst you can make up infantry and cavalry troops later on by using great stables and barracks, the siege workshop is limited. At the end of the day, the more siege you have, the more effective your hammer will be.

It is always better to be able to train troops 24/7, than go for all five queues sporadically, so pace yourself; ensure you can run siege workshop, stables and barracks before you try to run greats.

Once you have enough villages, or a high enough raiding income, you must train in all five buildings 24/7 constantly, or as often as possible.

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 07:29 AM
During the game

A few dos and don'ts;

DO consider building a smaller secondary army for chiefing and eliminating threats
DO use your hammer sensibly; if you must use it, send enough troops to minimise your losses
DON'T overkill - do not send your entire hammer out to clear an oasis, or a player with very few troops. Remember that every time you use your hammer, you risk that report being passed on, and therefore risk your hammer becoming a target.
DO remember to upgrade your troops in the blacksmith.
DON'T make your hammer village obvious; call it something innocuous, not “MAIN OFF” etc!
DO ensure that you have a good number of scouts in your off village - be prepared for incomings.
DO ensure to level up your hero; at the very least you need the offence bonus maxed out - using a secondary offence for this is preferable.


Artifacts

Clearly, the troop training speed artifacts are a huge benefit to hammer builders, but think carefully before clearing one; will the troop loss from clearing it be worth the benefit of the artifact? What has proved an effective method for many alliances in the past is sharing an artifact between players. If this happens, pour everything you can into troop queues whilst you have it, especially the siege queue.

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 07:31 AM
Sending your hammer

After months of lovingly building your hammer, don't mess up at the final hurdle! Take your time, and make sure you pick the right target.

Try to avoid fake or dummy WWs Keep an eye out for other reports and rumours. the population of the WWs is also often a good indication of which are real or not, for example the population is too low (the infrastructure isn't there) or much too high (unnecessary buildings have been built)

Be realistic If your hammer is not that big, or only has 3-4k catas, don't wait until level 99 to try and hit! Hit early, and make a difference instead.

Be prepared Try to get troop numbers for the different WWs, either by scouting, or sending a large raid in. Not only can this show you a fake WW, if the defence numbers are extremely low, but it will also allow you to run a combat sim, to try and work out what damage you can do where.

Choose your target (s) wisely Whilst it might look more impressive hitting the WW itself, damaging infrastructure (Great warehouses, great granaries, main building) will often cost your opponent more time. DO NOT DOUBLE TARGET THE SAME BUILDING. Check how long the buildings will take to rebuild - remember that building times are halved in the WW. Once a WW reaches level 98, your only option is to hit the WW - the last two levels will have been queued and therefore hitting anything else will have no affect.

Check the artifacts Most WW holders will now hold an artifact, so double check before you send; ensure you have taken into account increased building strength in your calculations and check about random fire; it is better to hit the WW itself and do less damage than to end up aiming randomly and taking out a wheat field or the rally point. The ones to watch out for are;




Rival's Large [or Unique] Confusion - These artifacts mean that you will only be able to target the WW itself, or random. Do not be fooled; you will still be able to pick the target in the rally point as you send your hammer, but it will hit a random target. In this case, it is always safer to hit the WW itself.
The Architect's Great [or Master] Secret - These artifacts make the buildings up to 5x stronger, so your hammer will have less impact. To hit these WWs, you need to have a much larger than average hammer to make a proper difference.


Co-operate with your alliance and confeds If you have built a cata hammer, try to find a ram army to follow. Ram hammers are essential - remember that the wall can add 49%-81% defence bonus at level 20, so ensure you have a ram hammer go in before the cata hammers!

Fake Fake several WWs, from several villages, to draw attention from your real attack.

The Brewery As a teuton, this is invaluable for those making ram hammers; run the festival as you send for a 10% off bonus. For teuton cata hammers, it can spell catastrophe - remember that running the festival in the brewery will mean that you cannot aim your catas!

DO NOT DOUBLE TARGET THE SAME BUILDING This is such a common mistake to be made, it needs to be said twice!

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 07:33 AM
I hope this helps :) any suggestions, please tell me and I'll add them in. Please note, I mainly play on speed servers, so it may differ slightly to normal servers.

Skidy1
28 Mar 2010, 09:26 AM
I think you should add in what constitutes different levels of hammers i.e. in wheat consumption and troop numbers like:

small hammer
medium hammer
large hammer
massive hammer

blood.canvas
28 Mar 2010, 10:18 AM
You could throw something in there about managing neg wheat once the hammer is rolling.

roman hero
28 Mar 2010, 11:25 AM
i think you should throw something up about defending the hammer if you are attacked

19kylegreer96
28 Mar 2010, 11:45 AM
You give tips % advice, but no actual guide with numbers, i know evrey hammer is different but to a complete noob this wouldn't do.

PieWise
28 Mar 2010, 03:07 PM
i think inf/cav/seige ratio's should get a mention, even if not exact numbers ;)

good guide though, well done :)

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 04:24 PM
Well I don't give numbers because in my mind, a hammer should be built not to numbers, but simply as big as possible?

As for defending the hammer, there are already numerous deffing guides out there

Enterprise1
28 Mar 2010, 04:36 PM
Very good guide Ella, well done.

As for ratio's. There is no ratio IMO. A hammer should always be built with no target in mind, just as many troops as you are able to train in the time period you have to build it.

If you build it properly, you will get a ratio of 3:1 (inf:cav).

And a small hammer isn't really a hammer, it's just a play off army which would better be used hitting supply villages/other hammer villages, not a WW as it is unlikely to do much damage

KaBoom | Tobi
28 Mar 2010, 07:37 PM
Very good guide. :)

gowf
28 Mar 2010, 07:45 PM
I like it!

also you should think about adding sections on the following:

1. artifacts and how they affect hammer building/targets. There was a small section, but maybe you can expand on this, talk about ram hammers
2. aims for early game, mid game, end game
3. Targetting and choice
4. when to send off the hammer
5. differences between speed and normal speed hammers.

well thats all i can think of atm, hope it helps.

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 07:51 PM
I like it!

also you should think about adding sections on the following:

1. artifacts and how they affect hammer building/targets. There was a small section, but maybe you can expand on this, talk about ram hammers
2. aims for early game, mid game, end game
3. Targetting and choice
4. when to send off the hammer
5. differences between speed and normal speed hammers.

well thats all i can think of atm, hope it helps.

I've never made a normal hammer, only speed ones, perhaps someone can help me there?

Will look into the artifact bit after I finish the mountain of pizza :p

Samantha78
28 Mar 2010, 08:09 PM
I like :)

The first thing to do when planning a hammer is to decide what kind of hammer you are making. Whilst you can make a mixed siege hammer, choosing either catapults or rams is much more efficient. Ideally, you want to work together within an alliance to ensure that there are enough of each - a cata hammer without a ram hammer will never do as much damage.


^^ usually - it depends on the server, and is definitely a decision to be taken in conjuction with the alliance. Pre-artefacts - mixed hammers were serious contenders (heh 8k rams and 10k cats in a single army was simply lethal); with arts I'm less sure it's the case - more single purpose armies are needed because of the confusion and strength arts.

DO consider building a smaller secondary army for chiefing and eliminating threats
^^ and invaluable for learning hero xp (which you mention but don't connect later)

++ consider setting up "fake" gb/gs villages

Sending your hammer
^^ this might reflect the alliances I'm used to..but co-operate with the alliance comes first and foremost...everything else is secondary or just not important because the decisions will be made by the alliance (most often in conjunction with the army holder tho) ...as an individual player you simply won't have the information available to you to make the most effective use of your army, if you are working as part of a team to help your alliance win. If you've got your own agenda it's a different matter.

hmmm I'd agree that ratios and numbers are a bit pointless - it's just whatever you can build 24/7 + keep alive

axe rather than mace are often, but not always, the choice for normal servers - feeding becomes a problem much sooner

oh and mention the teut brewery bonus ;) and maybe a link to nosim's ww targetting guide; and also to avi's top 100 armies which are good guides as to the numbers that can be achieved (though they get better each server)

Essence
28 Mar 2010, 08:40 PM
Ok added in the changes.

Whilst I get what a lot of you are saying, I think that more comes under defence, especially fake Gbs and Gss, whilst this is aimed at improving hammer hits :)

Cait
31 Mar 2010, 12:22 AM
Ok added in the changes.

Whilst I get what a lot of you are saying, I think that more comes under defence, especially fake Gbs and Gss, whilst this is aimed at improving hammer hits :)


Why havent you put in how to build a phalanx hammer - major flaw?

What I would like to see added is timings around starting.
You've mentioned that hammer building should be about building the maximum number of troops in the available time (which will be effected by how soon you go 24/7 - especially with siege)

With that in mind - could we have a table ?

10 weeks = ? cats
8 weeks = ? cats
6 weeks ... etc

and I know you dont like being specific about numbers....

but i think it would help knowing what kind of level of cats would qualify as a WW hammer (I realise that's an estimate) as that would help someone decide whether they had time left to get one started and / or whether they could afford to set up a second one or if not second hammer then significant secondary offence ?

Snofooz

commander
31 Mar 2010, 09:52 AM
The reason such things can't really be quoted, is because what may be useful on one server, may be useless on the next.

To be honest, on a slow server, you wan't to be having probably ~5k catas minimum..to be of any worth. And thats on a fairly small defence. 10k+ should always be the target for anyone serious about making a decent army.

As a very rough guide, if you havn't set up and started building before mid game artifacts, you need to get a move on ;) (or grab a 50% reduced training time one.. :oops:)(Info for slow servers.)

Essence
31 Mar 2010, 07:22 PM
Why havent you put in how to build a phalanx hammer - major flaw?

What I would like to see added is timings around starting.
You've mentioned that hammer building should be about building the maximum number of troops in the available time (which will be effected by how soon you go 24/7 - especially with siege)

With that in mind - could we have a table ?

10 weeks = ? cats
8 weeks = ? cats
6 weeks ... etc

and I know you dont like being specific about numbers....

but i think it would help knowing what kind of level of cats would qualify as a WW hammer (I realise that's an estimate) as that would help someone decide whether they had time left to get one started and / or whether they could afford to set up a second one or if not second hammer then significant secondary offence ?

Snofooz

No you can't have a table :p

It doesn't work that way; you just have to start asap ;)

Cait
31 Mar 2010, 10:48 PM
No you can't have a table :p

It doesn't work that way; you just have to start asap ;)

Lazy girl!

I WANTS TABLE!

and Commander - sorry I should have said - I meant for speed.

Im not looking for how many I SHOULD have - Im looking for how many CAN be built in a specified amount of time

Snofooz

ringo_monkey
01 Apr 2010, 02:14 PM
I honestly read the guide title as 'Hamster Building.'

I think I should have gone to Spec-savers.!

Jaffa
01 Dec 2010, 07:36 AM
I think you should add in what constitutes different levels of hammers i.e. in wheat consumption and troop numbers like:

small hammer
medium hammer
large hammer
massive hammer

That'd be good.
Because I've just started building my first ever hammer (I'm a new player) and I don't have a clue how much wheat I'm going to need, and how big to make it.

Other than that, quite a good guide.

The Analyst
01 Dec 2010, 11:54 AM
Sorry to be negative, but I do not think you can apply this to slow servers. On a slow server the limiting factor is not biuld time but wheat, you often are forced to make which unit gives the best off per wheat (with cats on 24/7 as a given), it is simply not easy or fair to find players to garage shedloads of troops for you for long periods of time. Axes give 60 per wheat, TK's 50 per wheat, so once feeding it becomes a nightmare, then as a tuet you just do Axes and Cats.

Sleeping Dragon
01 Dec 2010, 01:57 PM
Really good guide

Couple of points - already covered perhaps?

(1) the 24 hours when you send the hammer is critical - I cannot understate the importance of you holding the haste artifact when you launch as ths gives you a chance of landing before the retaliation - just be careful when you transfer it as an enemy will be watching for this

(2) 10k is the minimum catas and you should be able to hit 15-16k. Less than 10k and you have a nice hammer but not a WW killer

(3) I would always put some rams in to my cata hammer just in case you have to leave 40-50 minutes gap between rammer and hammer ie because you are dodging incoming on your hammer village

(4) always be ready to surrender your capital when the enemy try and chief your hammer village

The perfect size for a hammer is just big enough to do the job of knocking an enemy out of the race - be ready to send it earlier than planned as you have to balance defence build up against your own troop build up

Also sometimes you want the enemy to defend when you attack so do not always fake. On server 3 we deliberately sent a detectable rammer and hammer at the largest WW knowing it would draw in defence from the other two WWs - this allowed the other two WWs to be zeroed whilst the main attack did enough to see TC surrender honourably. (One week later we zeroed the main WW but that was becoz we still had hammers left and players wanted to be able to use them)

Edit: re analyst's post. I am not sure. You should be able to get up to 300-400k wheat per hour on a slow server which is enough to build a 250k-350k hammer. Wheat was only a problem for my last hammer in the 23 hours it took to get to the target (fortunately I had a great sitter). But I remained happily in positive wheat the whole server up to that point

The Analyst
01 Dec 2010, 02:39 PM
OK just added my wheat. I have a highly wheat centred account, rank 93 - 26 villages.

I have;
8 x 15c including a 125% oasis cap
7 x 9c
9 x 7c
2 x 6c (1 as there was no 7c near the wheat oasis, the other as WW feeder)

I have added all the wheat from the villages and it totals 140K, and from that you have to deduct the pop of the biuldings. I cannot see how you would get to 400k.

Samantha78
01 Dec 2010, 03:13 PM
OK just added my wheat. I have a highly wheat centred account, rank 93 - 26 villages.

I have;
8 x 15c including a 125% oasis cap
7 x 9c
9 x 7c
2 x 6c (1 as there was no 7c near the wheat oasis, the other as WW feeder)

I have added all the wheat from the villages and it totals 140K, and from that you have to deduct the pop of the buildings. I cannot see how you would get to 400k.

From memory, you're not a gold user, the analyst - so is one of you including the 25% wheat and the other not?

I tended to run out of wheat space in account at around 150k-200k

There are now also the added quirks of artefacts. There are also ways to store big armies without weakening the other account(s) - for example,

storing with a holder of a diet art. and sending wheat/resources to cover the cheaper rations
swapping wwk troops for static defence - i.e. the defender stores bits of the wwk, your store some of their defence
storing with players high in wheat that don't use gold/granaries overflowing (I was incredibly *lucky* to take advantage of this on s2; there was a pre-end game incident where an enemy gb/gs was over chiefed and one army ran into another - so the two/three players involved had more wheat than expected and were very kind to offer to garage)
raid lots


It never feels straightforward to somehow manage to keep growing villages, army and feed it but players tend to find a balance of what works for them.

Overusing the haste arte trick would worry me - you still have to wait for the artefact to activate before sending and that's an extra 24 hours notice. The alternative is to regularly fake so they don't know when wwk is being launched, or hide so well on the server no one expects a big army ;) But it all depends on the state of the server at any given point.

While for slow servers axe >> mace because of wheat consumption; if push came to shove it's the infantry troops that I'd stop building not the cav tbh. If I wanted to play catch up and had gb/gs then gb is cheaper; and siege counts as inf. A lot of wwk (using the historic looser term of >5k siege rather than > 10k siege) end up heavily balanced towards inf because of that. But of course it depends on the ww defence it hits up against :)

commander
01 Dec 2010, 03:38 PM
The only way you are going to get 300-400k total wheat production on a slow server is to do a Dr.Schizo
and have 40+ 15c...in other words, hardly ever can you get that.

The Analyst
01 Dec 2010, 03:39 PM
am using my start up gold for the last few weeks of the server. 7 weeks of +25% wheat, am hoping it lasts :)

I was not aware that Cats counted as Inf, maybe a change of plan is in order, especially as getting them back from storage is quicker with the TK.

The reason I made my 1st post still remains, on slow servers, generally (there are extreme exceptions eg blood), it is not biuld time that is the limiting factor of hammer sizes, but the wheat to feed the beast.

Sleeping Dragon
03 Dec 2010, 04:10 PM
OK small account on server 3 - only finished with 24 villages (11735 pop) so not much population per village (under 500 pop per village).

Capital 150% bonus with 15 level 21 wheat fields with gold bonus = 171645
1 x 150% bonus 15 cropper = 11250
12 x 125% bonus 15 croppers = 116526
7 x 100% bonus 15 croppers = 65625
1 x 9 cropper x 150% bonus = 3958 as I hadnt settled oases when server ended
2 x 6 croppers = 6000

Total: 375000 and a bit

Had wheat got tight I had just under 6k of population to demolish without affecting wheat production

Started 3 weeks late so could have been more and server was only 340 days length, so I think much more than the above is easily possible. Spent a lot of gold as not much else coming out of the account than wheat. Should add I played Gaul and didnt get much raid receipts (traps arent reknowned for their raiding ability) and took an absolute age to get to village 2 as in my own alliance of 3-4 players until I had 3 villages. Basically, I had a rubbish start to server and I would expect a Teuton in a strong alliance with aggressive raiding to do much better than above

There are two ways I suspect to build a hammer: go for lots of villages, needing culture points and thus high population and a mix of 15 croppers as well as 6 and 9 croppers to keep culture points as high as possible, in which case wheat will be a problem and wheat consumption by an army needs to be handled (the analyst's point) OR go for a wheat producing account (mine could have certainly boosted wheat production by another 20k if I had worked at it and started on time) and spend forever golding from wheat to other resource in which case time to build is key

Another long answer from me basically saying I think both the analysts and I may be right - both ways get you a hammer and that is the key thing. But happy for others with more experience to chip in and correct me

commander
03 Dec 2010, 04:27 PM
Well the thing is, its not easy to get that much wheat. Yours is an exceptionally rare case, in that you had 21 croppers besides your capital, and a capital with level 21 fields.

For those pushing for a huge army and perhaps surrounded by allies, they simply cannot afford level 21 fields (or at least not without extreme difficulty I imagine). Not to mention its nowhere near efficient, but even forgetting the efficiency, someone building a real big army will unlikely get level 21 fields, nor will they probably even think about bothering for several reasons. I imagine you had extra resources as it were, since croppers with oases produce more res than their regular village counterparts.

I have to ask, were you in the boonies?

Because there's no way I would have been able to get 21 croppers on any server I've played so far, as generally to get that many would involved covering a large area and encroaching on allies 'personal space'.


So no, it isn't easy at all to get 300-400k wheat storage. Its exceptionally rare.

Getting a load of croppers is a good tactic if you have no gold spending worries, as its more resources generally, but its not common or easy.

Fhuaran
03 Dec 2010, 05:52 PM
Capital 150% bonus with 15 level 21 wheat

Total: 375000 and a bit


http://travian-reports.net/us/report/62194231d25

Your wheat production: 375k
Your hammer consumption: 233k

Isn't this a gross lack of forward planning? Even if we factor in your lost 8k Haeduans and 4k Trebuchets. After all, any player can massively increase their production if they cease to make troops their primary goal.

I'm certainly getting the impression here that the few players who manage L21 wheat fields do it despite its economic impact, not because of it. Not to take away from your hammer, as it is excellent, but it looks like you shot yourself in the foot.

Sleeping Dragon
03 Dec 2010, 06:10 PM
Yes I have to agree and I was merely illustrating the level of wheat production possible

Couple of things happened that mitigate my ineptitude:

(1) I lost 40k of my hammer to an overnight raid in a garage which was more carelessness on my part than poor planning as you say :)
(2) with very little other resources I needed about 200k per hour wheat to keep troop stacks going so had most of my wheat production in place before the end game
(3) I launched early - had I gone on day 365 rather than day 330, I would have been at 370k WCT as I was building at 4k per day - on the last point I finished the server on day 340 with 40k WCT in my hammer village and another just under 80k still churning out

I think I mentioned earlier sometimes you have to send your army in earlier than planned because it will have a bigger impact. That is the risk of a big wheat account - if you go early then its actually pretty much dead :)

Fun though

commander
03 Dec 2010, 06:28 PM
Lol, well the server I last played lasted 365 days, so if you are saying 330 days is early then I sent mine early too. :p

I think it highlights the point. Getting that kind of wheat production is not easy if you are making a huge army. If you aren't making a huge army, then of course there would be plenty of resources to 'waste' on level 21 fields.

As Fhuaran said, I think you shot yourself in the foot. Had you made a bigger army, which you obviously could have (which means you would have been spending more on troops and their upkeep), I think you would have struggled to get level 21 fields. So really its level 21 fields OR huge army, which is why I said it isn't easy or common.

No disrespect, but it does seem that way. :)

Sleeping Dragon
03 Dec 2010, 07:10 PM
I am always shooting myself in the foot, I am surpised I dont have a permanent limp

With the benefit of hindsight I would not have changed the dispostion of my vilages but would have done the following and had a 400k WCT hammer with no need to garage it:

(1) not spent so much time chatting on skype on server 2 that I forgot to start server 3 for 22 days!!!!
(2) joined an allaince early on as then I wouldnt have had to suffer constant raids for four weeks whilst trying to get my first settlers
(3) definitely not been a Gaul and at least I could have got some good raiding in in the first two weeks I turfed up and thus got to village 2 quicker

Those 22 days at the start cost me 88k troops by finish :( that will teach me to be a chatterbox!

My big miscalculation though was I had thought we were going to be a 365 day server and not a 340 day server so I not only lost 22 days at the start, I lost 25 days at the end. By the time the penny had dropped in my pea-like empty shell of a brain I already had the infrastructure for level 21 at which point I was pretty much committed.

Lesson for me is if you have a 365 day server its worth the level 21 fields as you can get to 400k plus in that time. Less than 350 then level 20 does as well but thats only about a 35k difference - you can still get over 320k wheat easy.

I shot myself in the foot in a zillion ways, but I think my point is still valid - I was never short of resources, I was short of time for my hammer.

Another player, starting on time and with 330 days before launch would have got to 220 + 40 (lost) + 80 (chattering) = 340k with ease.

But me, I just hair-brained it :)

commander
03 Dec 2010, 07:50 PM
But you were short of time partly because you spent so much time getting level 21 fields surely? I acknowledge the late start, not so much the 'early' finish though, since it wouldn't be that far off when bigger armies are generally launched annyway.

As well as the cost of the level 21 fields, there is the infrastructure, and the level 20 fields before that.

I'm afraid I can't be bothered to work it all out (:oops:), but I'm sure it would be a while before it paid off, and all those hundreds of millions of resources could have been pumping out and feeding troops via NPC.

Of course like most things in travian its about the sweet spot. When is the best compromise, etc.

I would never go for level 21 fields, it just seems ridiculous to me. All those resources would be put into troops and subsequently feeding those troops. I've never been past 18's myself, because I'm not the most savvy starter (due to boredom at the start and subsequently not enough practice of a 'good' start nor raiding effort), which has a knock on effect until after mid game when I can use what I believe to be good planning and organisational skills to get the best out of my account and catch up through a number of conquers and such.

But anyway, I believe the point we originally disagreed with was that its easy to get 300-400k wheat production on a slow server. Yes its possible, but easy or common? No. You must surely see that you were a rare case with level 21 fields and 21 croppers. With a further point being that you could have had an even bigger army if you didn't bother with all that, proving it isn't easy to do both.

You should have just grabbed a diet arty :p

Fizzy
03 Dec 2010, 08:02 PM
My big miscalculation though was I had thought we were going to be a 365 day server and not a 340 day server so I not only lost 22 days at the start, I lost 25 days at the end. By the time the penny had dropped in my pea-like empty shell of a brain I already had the infrastructure for level 21 at which point I was pretty much committed.


The infrastructure must still be a small percentage of the actual cost though, so you werent actually commited.

Essence
03 Dec 2010, 08:49 PM
But you were short of time partly because you spent so much time getting level 21 fields surely? I acknowledge the late start, not so much the 'early' finish though, since it wouldn't be that far off when bigger armies are generally launched annyway.

As well as the cost of the level 21 fields, there is the infrastructure, and the level 20 fields before that.

I'm afraid I can't be bothered to work it all out (:oops:), but I'm sure it would be a while before it paid off, and all those hundreds of millions of resources could have been pumping out and feeding troops via NPC.

Of course like most things in travian its about the sweet spot. When is the best compromise, etc.

I would never go for level 21 fields, it just seems ridiculous to me. All those resources would be put into troops and subsequently feeding those troops. I've never been past 18's myself, because I'm not the most savvy starter (due to boredom at the start and subsequently not enough practice of a 'good' start nor raiding effort), which has a knock on effect until after mid game when I can use what I believe to be good planning and organisational skills to get the best out of my account and catch up through a number of conquers and such.

But anyway, I believe the point we originally disagreed with was that its easy to get 300-400k wheat production on a slow server. Yes its possible, but easy or common? No. You must surely see that you were a rare case with level 21 fields and 21 croppers. With a further point being that you could have had an even bigger army if you didn't bother with all that, proving it isn't easy to do both.

You should have just grabbed a diet arty :p
19s don't pay themselves off during a speed server, never mind 20s or 21s

commander
03 Dec 2010, 08:55 PM
I never said they didn't.

But we're talking slow server here ;)

Obviously if you're too late doing 19's on a slow server they won't pay for themselves either.

Fizzy
03 Dec 2010, 09:03 PM
19s don't pay themselves off during a speed server, never mind 20s or 21s

Its not so much that they dont pay themselves off on a speed server, its that whilst you are building them, you are not running GB/GS. In theory, if you chief villages at a quick enough rate for the rest of the server, you dont need to go to 19s anyway, as the continued increase in resource production will equal the increase in troop feeding costs.

Sleeping Dragon
03 Dec 2010, 10:00 PM
The infrastructure must still be a small percentage of the actual cost though, so you werent actually commited.

True :( its just having demolished everything and having a whole pile of GW and the most boring capital in the world, the 40 days it took me to go level 21 didnt seem that bad and I had 45 days troops in GS GB B and S and SW already stacked - thats all I meant by committed.

I didnt lose any GS GB stack time going to levels 18 through to 21 as I made sure I was already stacked for the time it took before upgrading each time, that way troops churned off as the fields came on line

Nope, Im certain another player would have got to 340k troops with my account but not cos of a different spend on wheat fields but because they would have started the server much better than me and not fallen asleep on the job when garaging troops

My account should have had over 300k and that for me will be a massive disappointment with only myself to kick about it - c'est la vie!

Id still do it again (except I started late again on server 2!!!!!!!!) as it took me less time to build that last layer of wheat and other fields than to settle and build up the villages I would have needed to get an additional 38k resource per hour let alone wheat production - chiefing would have been nice but my nearest enemy was 24 hours away cos Id gone to the outer hebrides and beyond!

I know I wasnt clever (no surprise there) but in the test of time over cost, fizzy is right that chiefing is best but when that option is not available, then upgrading to 21 proved quicker than settling and I was after speed not cheapness - bit like cars really :)

Cherrypip
03 Dec 2010, 10:02 PM
Its not so much that they dont pay themselves off on a speed server, its that whilst you are building them, you are not running GB/GS. In theory, if you chief villages at a quick enough rate for the rest of the server, you dont need to go to 19s anyway, as the continued increase in resource production will equal the increase in troop feeding costs.

What about settling as opposed to chiefing?

Fhuaran
03 Dec 2010, 10:29 PM
What about settling as opposed to chiefing?

The main issue here I think is CP so that would not make a huge amount of difference in terms of increasing production, however each village you settle has an associated cost of development of between 1.5mil and 3mil resources which detracts from extending troop queues.

Reading back though, I think I was a little harsh in my previous post - Sleeping Dragon's account was a beast of a resource machine by anyone's standards and not everyone plays purely for troop count. Sorry!

Fizzy
04 Dec 2010, 08:10 AM
What about settling as opposed to chiefing?


Simmmmmaaaahhhh!!! :p

It obviously depends on your targets, but chiefing is more effective resource and time wise. Because of the longer time and increased resources it takes to get a settled village to maxed out feeder status, compared to a chiefed village, it would mean more strain on troop feeding.

However it also depends on your style of play, if you are very non-offensive, then its quite likely your chiefing targets have dug in and are well defended, so the cost in troops might make it more sensible to settle. My issue would be, if you're hoping to be building troops 24/7 for the remainder of the server, having to settle dozens of villages and simming them up would be extremely soul sapping.

Mouse-Keyboard
12 Dec 2010, 10:21 PM
I am always shooting myself in the foot, I am surpised I dont have a permanent limp


Dragons are dog people

CRUNCH

Still our Hill

I agree.

Pallosalama
04 Jul 2012, 03:20 PM
Good guide for beginner, altough I already knew everything there, I still enjoy reading guides done with care. Also thats sick amount of wheat there, Sleeping Dragon. I barely get 30k wheat production during full server lol