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Thread: Ultimate Guide to Defending

  1. #41

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    This is an excellent guide and goes into a lot of detail and is well written.

    I do have a couple of issues though.

    You have written the guide from the point of view of.... well I am being attacked so what do I do now. Some of us have a slightly different outlook in terms of DEF. Closer to PLEASE attack. (pretty please).

    Much of your guide is written in a reactive manner rather than being proactive and designed to give advice BEFORE you are attacked.

    An example of this is as follows.

    1. Read your messages. I try not to read messages from accounts that I am not friendly with when I first log on, (as this gives the sender an indication as to my on-line habits).

    2. Traps. I think you have seriously misjudged the benefit of traps under the new T3.5 rules, (although I am really only talking about slower servers here). On speed servers there are simply too many troops knocking about to make them effective.

    3. You mention about making time to log on regularly and so make yourself look as active as possible in terms of POP growth on such sites as Travutils. By the same token, appearing inactive on purpose by only building troops and keeping a dormant POP level then you can sucker people into an attack. Is it worth mentioning for noobs that POP growth for the sake of POP growth should be considered the 8th deadly sin.

    I've skimmed through a fair bit of the guide but I will have another look in more detail when I get a chance.

    [Edit]

    Something else that I can't see in your guide is instructions on upgrading DEF troops at the armoury. This is a real basic and something that you might have just overlooked because it is so basic. Scouts should also be classed as DEF troops by the way.

    Very litttle mention of scouts anywhere. To my mind a scout DEF is one of the most underused DEF tactics in the game, (especially by Gauls on slower servers). With a large scout force, and a medium number of free traps, you can move the DEF from an isolated village into another area and leave the village just defended by large scouts and traps. It is unlikely that an opponent will hit a target such as this if they are unable to scout it first, (providing the village is of a decent size).

    Crannies. Just 1 cranny in each village should be the norm. It doesn't take up too much space and offers you the luxury of an easier dodge and resource transfer if you are online. Most players should only DEF when they have to DEF. If an attacker loses OFF in an empty village and returns with no resources they are not very likely to make a retirn visit unless it becaomes personal.

    There was something else but I can't remember now...

    [Edit]

    Something else that needs to be considered when deciding what DEF troops to build is the location of your other villages and other friendly villages, (and also your race). Do you have an isolated village that needs to support itself, (a balanced DEF might be required but you can possibly provide scout cover from elsewhere). Do you have a local trusted ally from another race? You might them be able to swap Spears/Phalanx for Praets, (this is only really effective if the villages are in close proximity or it removes the ability to dodge)

    Some experienced players I know still like to DEF with TK's and I also don't like to see expensive Haeds used either, (unless it is sniping CATs/chiefs). Look at the cost of what it will cost to replace these troops and then calculate an estimated cost in lost OFF to your attacker and then see if it is worth it. In general my advice would be that they shouldn't be used, but it is certainly worth sniping with expensive heavy CAV.

    Try not to use your DEF as OFF. Many Teuts like using Pals as follow up raiders, (which I get), and I know Banditt has a serious infatuation with raiding with Druids, but you need to keep in mind that they can't DEF if they are out raiding.

    Mace DEF should be considered an abomination, I don't care what your combat simulation tells you, (yes Niknaks I am talking to you).

    [Edit]

    Sorry, remembered something else. I also haven't seen mention of the worth of at least a double granary in important villages or villages with large troop numbers.
    Have you been warned about breaching rule 2.P.?

    Jim (old) is gone. If we are posting it will be H (young).

  2. #42
    Prolific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific Member Elzebub's Avatar
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    Cretin has some very good graphs that show def vs build time vs wheat vs cost etc. If you begged him via PM he might share them.
    S5 WWK Thanks Skidy!

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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    prevention comments
    Added bits to the guide on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    then you can sucker people into an attack.
    This guide is not designed to tell people to lure people to attacking them. It is a guide on how to prevent/stop/survive attacks. Having a "how to defend" guide telling people to appear inactive is ludicrous in my opinion. As when you go inactive, you don't just get one person attacking you - but possibly 5+. That will mean that you get 5 sets of scouts, 5 armies, and 5 enemies.... Which if you get sighted by a player 3 times your size etc - puts you into a tricky situation to get back out of. It is better to stay off the attacker's radar, than to say "hey you, come attack me as im inactive".... and then to find out they have enough troops to destroy your defending army... leaving you with no defense and becoming a farm.


    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    upgrading DEF troops at the armoury.
    Added a bit to the "basics" section.

    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    Very litttle mention of scouts anywhere.
    Addded a bit to the "basics" section

    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    Crannies.
    There is already a small section on upgrading crannaries... So I don't know what you want me to add with this comment. I would prefer to keep a fixed number of crannaries off of the guide - as it would depend on how many attacks you get per day, trying to farm you etc... And therefore more crannaries would be needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    DEF troops
    Added a bit to the "basics" section

    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    double granary
    Added a bit on it in the guide.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutius Maximus View Post
    This guide is not designed to tell people to lure people to attacking them. It is a guide on how to prevent/stop/survive attacks. Having a "how to defend" guide telling people to appear inactive is ludicrous in my opinion. As when you go inactive, you don't just get one person attacking you - but possibly 5+. That will mean that you get 5 sets of scouts, 5 armies, and 5 enemies.... Which if you get sighted by a player 3 times your size etc - puts you into a tricky situation to get back out of. It is better to stay off the attacker's radar, than to say "hey you, come attack me as im inactive".... and then to find out they have enough troops to destroy your defending army... leaving you with no defense and becoming a farm.
    With respect, the title of this guide is "The ultmate Defending guide". Not having a section on DEF traps would seem to be more than a little remiss.

    The reason I am suggesting it as a tactic is that word soon spreads about a Gaul in no alliance who gives out NONE OF YOUR TROOPS HAVE RETURNED messages, and who you are unable to scout. There simply comes a time when the attackers look at the vilage, the DEF points that the defender has accrued on the server and they think to themselves "feck that for a game of soldiers!".

    Anyway, what the hell do I know.
    Have you been warned about breaching rule 2.P.?

    Jim (old) is gone. If we are posting it will be H (young).

  5. #45
    Tullia
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    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    Anyway, what the hell do I know.
    A lot? When are you going to write your own guide, huh? You know I want you to...



    But you are right; this guide is incorrectly titled - more accurate would be "How to cope when under attack", perhaps?

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    With respect, the title of this guide is "The ultmate Defending guide". Not having a section on DEF traps would seem to be more than a little remiss.
    I'm not talking about traps... You said these exact words:
    Quote Originally Posted by h h h
    You mention about making time to log on regularly and so make yourself look as active as possible in terms of POP growth on such sites as Travutils. By the same token, appearing inactive on purpose by only building troops and keeping a dormant POP level then you can sucker people into an attack. Is it worth mentioning for noobs that POP growth for the sake of POP growth should be considered the 8th deadly sin.
    That says nothing about gauls, nor traps. I answered it as it is.... As you should not tell people to purposely go inactive or seem inactive in a defense guide. You might as well go attack someone to provoke a response... It is the same principle.

    You provoking an attack or multiple attacks by going inactive means that you put yourself under attacks purely for reputation... seeing as though you just said "word gets around about a gaul that sends your troops have not returned messages". Which is a different matter to inactivity.

    There is a section on traps.... And a section on inactivity in this guide. So I cannot see where I am missing something with what you are saying. The guide includes parts on how to prevent attacks etc - by staying active etc.... And how to cope when you are under attack. The idea of purposely getting someone to attack you doesn't fit into this guide - as you wouldn't be looking for help in a defensive guide if you were making yourself get attacked. It makes no sense.

  7. #47
    Tullia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutius Maximus View Post
    I'm not talking about traps...

    Ummm. You're writing a guide on def and you don't know the difference between a trap (the building) and a Def Trap (the strategy)?



    A def trap is where you deliberately set up a village to *appear* as a good target, to lure the enemy to commit a serious attacking force. You then ensure he runs into an impressive def wall and loses a significant proportion of his army for minimal loss to yourself/your alliance. This is what h h h was tring to explain to you.

    It's nothing to do with reputation, it's to do with being an efficient way to take out enemy troops, stunting their growth and turning them into targets instead of you.

    You claim this is the ultimate defense guide. Def traps are a proactive form of defense!

  8. #48

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    One of the problems that a lot of less-experienced players have is they dont understand a battle is 2 sided, and they start from the assumption that the attacker has the advantage. If the attacker isnt sending cats, they dont have the advantage, the defender can simply dodge if they dont want to fight, just as the attacker can decide not to hit the send troops button if they dont want to fight. Attackers and defenders are simply 2 forces on opposite sides of the battleground. Each side should only be commiting to a battle when they think the outcome will give them an advantage over the other player. Persuading an attacker to send an attack against a Def Wall is one way to make that happen
    I need help, not ridicule!

  9. #49
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    On s3 last server I set a def tra up against the player Hazze who I provoked to attacking me with his WW army, we organised a large coalition defense and took his whole army out.

    admittedly being -120k / hour isn;t for the faint hearted and it was the organisation and ability of the alliances that made sure no troops starved.

    The point being if you set a defense trap up, you have to have alot of trust with your allaince to be able to feed it within the rules of travian.
    "Some of the biggest challenges in relationships come from the fact that most people enter a relationship in order to get something. They're trying to find someone who's going to make them feel good. In reality, the only way a relationship will last is if you see your relationship as a place that you go to give, and not a place that you go to take."

  10. #50
    Tullia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarre View Post
    On s3 last server I set a def tra up against the player Hazze who I provoked to attacking me with his WW army, we organised a large coalition defense and took his whole army out.

    admittedly being -120k / hour isn;t for the faint hearted and it was the organisation and ability of the alliances that made sure no troops starved.

    The point being if you set a defense trap up, you have to have alot of trust with your allaince to be able to feed it within the rules of travian.
    That's a good point. Until he actually attacks, you are limited to the usual one hour per day from people If you're planning a long term trap, then you need to pay a lot of attention to your own wheat supplies. It's also where h h h's comment about multiple granaries is important. I usually go for three granaries and incidentally that make me almost impossible to crop lock - people don't expect three granaries; I often get left with one standing.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tullia View Post
    Ummm. You're writing a guide on def and you don't know the difference between a trap (the building) and a Def Trap (the strategy)?
    I don't call the strategy "def trap", I call it ambush. Same strategy, from what you are describing - just different name. I don't call it "def trap", as I get confused with normal traps...

  12. #52
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    I had 4 granneries maxed when we set the def trap and we had to time the wheat shipments well to not flood the granneries.

    One of the biggest problems as a defense co-ordinator I have found is being able to get people to send small shipments. sometimes you only have time to send a large quantity before bed when people send early morning attacks to allaince members. The biggest problem with that is that if everyone sends big drops to cover troops for the night their there, alot of wheat can get wasted and you find that come 4am troops can start to starve. Having sitters in a different timezone helps sometimes but can mean expensive NPC'ing.

    I tend to have villages from far out send wheat early to arrive during the worst time when feeding my troops in others villages and then send from closer villages before I go to bed, other ways also is to do double drops of smaller amounts of wheat, but for newer players reading I will point out thats only an option for plus accounts to b able to make a merchant do 2 trips of the amount of resources you have selected.
    "Some of the biggest challenges in relationships come from the fact that most people enter a relationship in order to get something. They're trying to find someone who's going to make them feel good. In reality, the only way a relationship will last is if you see your relationship as a place that you go to give, and not a place that you go to take."

  13. #53

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    A decent troop tool will allow you to co-ord the wheat and troop deliveries to show you the blank spots and the overflow spots
    I need help, not ridicule!

  14. #54

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    Brutius.

    I really wasn't having a go at you, (because I think your guide is good).

    What I was trying to get across to you is that you are approaching this whole thing from the mentality of it is a bad thing to be attacked.

    A lot of people think it is a bad thing and they are all wrong.

    Let me explain.

    If we assume that the attacker has 1000 OFF points and they are attacking a defender with 1000 DEF points then assuming either both or neither of them are using the plus bonus, then they should be evenly matched. The only difference will be the Hero points, levels upgraded at the blacksmith/armoury and the DEF bonus provided by the wall & Residence, (while I am on the subject of walls I didn't see a section to walls in your guide. They deserve their own section).

    Have a look at this example for the current ukx server.

    If I have a L20 Gaul wall (+64%) and a hero ranked outside the top 300 on the server...

    DEF God level 14 (Phalanx)
    Attack: 20 20 ( 0
    Defense: 1020/1200 1020/1200 ( 18
    Off-Bonus: 0% 0% ( 0
    Def-Bonus: 11% 11% ( 55
    Regeneration: 30/day 30/day ( 2
    Experience: 88% 88% 0
    Then it's quite possible that I can absolutely destroy an attacking force similar in strength to my own.

    If I then add traps into the mix then who the hell would want to attack me with the following bonus.

    25% bonus for plus.
    64% bonus for my wall.
    11% bonus for my hero.

    Then assume that I have about 20k Phalanx (most of it levelled up to a decent level at the armoury).

    Just for the hell of it let's add in 3200 traps in a 1k POP village..

    Now if we look at what sort of force it would take to kill me off then let's see where we would get.

    Have a look at the OFF points that are gained by the #1 attacker on the server this week and by the #1 DEFfer on the server this week.

    Now assume that most of the DEF points have been earned by an alliance that has been working together with troops from multiple accounts.

    Just look at the chunk I would take out of a decent sized hammer, (for this stage of the game), and then see what sort of benefit there would be to anyone hitting it.I am ranked outside the top 1000 by POP on ukx and not even playing properly so let's not get carried away by these numbers. They are conservative estimates all over the shop.

    The biggest thing to do with DEF is having the right attitude. Seeing red flashing swordies is good. It's just cheap hero XP as long as you have prepared fully.

    The problem with thavia is that by far the greater majority of people would prefer to spend their resources on OFF troops rather than DEF troops.

    By far the greater majority of people would prefer to spend their resources on upgrades at the blacksmith rather than upgrades rather than upgrades at their armoury.

    By far the greater majority of people would prefer to spend their resources building useless buildings that add to their POP than build a big old wall.

    The biggest thing wrong with your guide is that you imply that being attacked is a bad thing and that you should do everything you can to stop it. I on the other hand actively encourage it.
    Have you been warned about breaching rule 2.P.?

    Jim (old) is gone. If we are posting it will be H (young).

  15. #55
    Honoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton Member Darkest's Avatar
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    It's 10% bonus form Plus isn't it?
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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    ... The biggest thing wrong with your guide is that you imply that being attacked is a bad thing and that you should do everything you can to stop it. I on the other hand actively encourage it.
    Most of this guide would be used if you were outmatched for defending (for example dodging, cutting waves etc). So It would imply that getting attacked is a bad thing - If you are outnumbered.

    If you have more troops than the enemy, plus defense bonuses, plus traps (if your gaul) - I could see why you would want someone to attack you. But then, if your defense is that good - Would you really need a guide?

    Quote Originally Posted by h h h View Post
    wall having it's own section...
    What do you suggest being written about the wall? . There are some mentions of walls etc, and the bonuses they provide.... But I dont know if there is enough for a post all by itself.

  17. #57
    New Poster Glenistor's Avatar
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    A excellent guide which provides a detailed knowledge of successful defending. However there are other defensive guides which are more imformative of key stratigic points.

  18. #58
    Prolific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific Member Elzebub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutius Maximus View Post
    Most of this guide would be used if you were outmatched for defending (for example dodging, cutting waves etc). So It would imply that getting attacked is a bad thing - If you are outnumbered.

    If you have more troops than the enemy, plus defense bonuses, plus traps (if your gaul) - I could see why you would want someone to attack you. But then, if your defense is that good - Would you really need a guide?


    What do you suggest being written about the wall? . There are some mentions of walls etc, and the bonuses they provide.... But I dont know if there is enough for a post all by itself.
    Yes but if it's an ultimate guide then it should include the proactive approach to Deffing, 3 granaries like Tullia said, ambush/traps/landmines etc like Jarre & Jimbo mentioned by provoking them into attacking and trap usage if they're gaul.

    Also on traps- Jimbo touched lightly on it but with the new T3.5 upgrades you can have max of 7200* traps. Having one all trap vill, with just a market, WH, granaries (of course) set slightly away from your main cluster looks very juicy to people looking for chief targets, it would be a piece of cake to def (as ~6k of their army would instantly be snapped up, not a HUGE deal near end game but it definitely messes up half hearted attacks) and if someone did succeed in chiefing it they would lose hundreds of pop points if they are not Gaul themselves when the trappers delete. 16 traps that delete means a loss of ~992 pop. Although, the vill would be above 1300 pop with that number so it's probably wiser to not do so many traps for chiefing ambushes. (any vill above 1.1k pop that's Gaul makes me back away now) I don't know if that's a great def advice but it sure as hell is fun.

    *I'm sleepy so these numbers might be off.

    /me steps back for the more knowledgeable def people now
    S5 WWK Thanks Skidy!

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  19. #59

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    It looks like I need another post tul'

  20. #60

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    too long for me but looks good
    since it is for any player would pictures help

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