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Thread: Clubs VS Axe

  1. #21
    Channing Tatum<3 Well-Known MemberWell-Known MemberWell-Known MemberWell-Known Member Touched's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Placid View Post
    I posted ''10 day snapshots'' but the cacls used were more detailed than that



    Think there lots of variables which affect it

    at a basic wheat consumption level

    2 axes cost 980 and eat 2 crop per hour
    3 maces cost 750 and eat 3 crop per hour

    With a cost difference of 230, Or 230h before mace start costing more
    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    Unless you are good with heavy -wheat
    Not really, if you queue 24 hours of each, then you end up with 888 mace or 533 axe.

    The cost of the axe is 261,169 resources in total, where as the mace cost 222,082.

    Without including attack power, the resources saved by queueing the mace works out at 39,087. The extra crop-consumption per day from the mace is 355, so 100 days of storage works out at 35,500 more than the cost of storing the axes.

    Eventually the extra day to day cost to store becomes quite high, an extra 355 mace a day (710 with great barracks) soon starts to add up.

  2. #22
    Honoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton Member KaBoom | Tobi's Avatar
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    That's a very good guide. And clearly shows why you should build axemen in hammers.
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  3. #23
    Carto-geek Roman MemberRoman Member Fhuaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    Unless you are good with heavy -wheat
    Skill does not change cost, that's the most fundamental and common failing when new players try to analyse resource economy. It's the same error as I heard somebody else make recently when they declared, "if you don't have lots of troops eating up the wheat, your capital wheat fields will pay for themselves faster". WRONG WRONG WRONG! Go read a couple of entry level economics and game theory textbooks then come back.

    Decent guide by the way, how about incorporating a section on slow servers (where crop consumption relative to attack value and raiding capacity is different and much more important), as this one seems to be purely from a 3x perspective.
    Last edited by Fhuaran; 07 Sep 2010 at 03:57 PM.

  4. #24
    MemberMember almosthuman's Avatar
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    of course the other plus a clubbie hammer has is that it is faster to rebuild if they get busted,not only that but if you get resource pushes from the alliance they will be the troops of choice as they will be faster to make and the faster you can build a reasonable hammer,the faster you can neutralise opposition...still like my axes though,always seem to end up with a 1/3 ratio of clubbies/axes,raid constantly with the clubbies as they are cheaper/quicker to replace.

  5. #25

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    This is my first time playing teutons so this was interesting me a lot. Some arguments seem more valid than others though...

    So i did some of my own math to check the accuracy of some of the statements.

    Lets assume your baracks and great baracks are both at level 20 and you are building in both of them 24/7 (I have taken into account the extra cost and time difference in my calcs)

    That means you are building either 1029 axes or 1715 clubs per day. Taking an arbitrary 70 days of building time (Absolute minimum building time for a WW with minimum structure and no attacks is around 68 days) you can build the following:

    Axes:
    72 030 troops
    4 321 800 attack points
    at a total cost of 70 589 400 resources

    Clubs:
    120 050 troops
    4 802 000 attack points
    at a cost of 60 025 000 resources

    So at first glance clubs win hands down! more attack points at less cost!
    But look again....
    Your axes are eating only 72 k crop per hour and your clubs as at 120k!
    Also taking into account that the axes/clubs built on the first day have been eating for the last 10 days, the second day 69 days and so on the figures look like this...

    Total crop consumed by infantry since day 1:
    Axes: 61 369 560 crop in 70 days total
    Clubs: 102 282 600 in 70 days total.

    That is a 40 million deficit!!

    Now look again at the deficit between resources used to build your axes and your clubs. thats only 10 million. So looking at the general picture, axes are much cheaper.

    Now the argument changes and it says, yes but with that extra cost I get more attack points, and that is obviously true. So how much attackpoints is that really and how much is this costing you?

    Taking the 4 802 000 attack points that the clubs generate as a benchmark... How long will it take to generate that when building axes?

    Building at the same rate axes will achieve 4 815 720 points in 78 days (10% difference) and even though you have been feeding the axes for 8 days more they are still coming in at almost 10million less resources than the 70 days worth of clubs. (if the Life of the WW is 70 days, the plans are placed on the map about 5 days earlier so a good time to start building!)

    So what does this meen? as a rule of thumb (actually i calculated it as more acurate than that!) getting the same attack points will take 10% longer with axes at much less cost and effort so: start planning earlier!! (as we seen at 70 days the difference in crop use is 40k an hr so that is very substancial especially seeing that the production of a 15c at all level 16 fields and 75% oases as well as Gold 25% gives 42k/hr)

    As a point of interest: If you have less than 18 days to build your army in clubs will be the cheaper option but only if it dies after that time! If you start 2 days earlier you will have more attack points at lower cost with axes.

  6. #26

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    As a general rule of thumb, that I follow, if you are:

    - Building a large, pre-planned WWK then axe are the better choice, usually due to the sheer wheat cost of storing mace vs attack points gained. Resources shouldn't be a consideration in this case; if you're a serious WWK player, you will have no issues.

    - Going to play a very offensive, gold heavy and active game then mace are by far the better choice due to their "expendable", attack:build time ratio.

    Lots of WWK players will choose axe for a sustainable game plan and then switch to mace in the last few weeks of endgame when garage space is freely available in their alliance to store macemen. By the same token, lots of heavily offensive players will switch to axe if their game slips in any respect.

    You should also consider the likelihood of your account gaining a diet or training artefact, which most top Teuton accounts will be after, and how this would affect proceedings.

    JM2C!
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  7. #27
    Spammer-in-chief Prolific Gaul MemberProlific Gaul MemberProlific Gaul MemberProlific Gaul MemberProlific Gaul Member Mouse-Keyboard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    As a general rule of thumb, that I follow, if you are:

    - Building a large, pre-planned WWK then axe are the better choice, usually due to the sheer wheat cost of storing mace vs attack points gained. Resources shouldn't be a consideration in this case; if you're a serious WWK player, you will have no issues.

    - Going to play a very offensive, gold heavy and active game then mace are by far the better choice due to their "expendable", attack:build time ratio.

    Lots of WWK players will choose axe for a sustainable game plan and then switch to mace in the last few weeks of endgame when garage space is freely available in their alliance to store macemen. By the same token, lots of heavily offensive players will switch to axe if their game slips in any respect.

    You should also consider the likelihood of your account gaining a diet or training artefact, which most top Teuton accounts will be after, and how this would affect proceedings.

    JM2C!
    Wheat is a resource, so if res isn't a problem, then go for mace
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  8. #28
    Junior Gaul Member Toby's Avatar
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    Did some more maths, geeky eh..

    Basically worked out that with upgrades and great barracks, it takes 47 days before the atk/cost of macemen and axemen is the same, and in that time you would of been able to produce 8000 more axemens worth of atk points. If you switched to building maces 47 days before sending off a hammer then its equivalent to a free 16% decreaced barracks training time during that period.

  9. #29
    Well-Known MemberWell-Known MemberWell-Known MemberWell-Known Member badbrain's Avatar
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    easy really. maces have better moustaches. so they win everytime:p

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by badbrain View Post
    easy really. maces have better moustaches. so they win everytime:p
    Axe >> Mace.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzenkopf View Post
    Axe >> Mace.
    How so?
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  12. #32
    Honoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton Member KaBoom | Tobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    How so?
    Just take a look at this. Taken from the .in forum.



    Axe-hammers get cheaper with the time, so if you want to do a very huge one, better choose them.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaBoom | Tobi View Post
    Just take a look at this. Taken from the .in forum.



    Axe-hammers get cheaper with the time, so if you want to do a very huge one, better choose them.
    Off/Res
    Clubswinger 0.16
    Axeman 0.12245

    Off/Time
    Clubswinger 0.055556
    Axeman 0.05

    Carry/WC
    Clubswinger 60
    Axeman 50

    Carry*Speed/WC
    Clubswinger 420
    Axeman 300

    Carry/Res
    Clubswinger 0.24
    Axeman 0.10204

    Carry*Speed/Res
    Clubswinger 1.68
    Axeman 0.61224

    Carry/Time
    Clubswinger 0.08333
    Axeman 0.04167

    Carry*Speed/Time
    Clubswinger 0.58333
    Axeman 0.25
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  14. #34
    Honoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton Member KaBoom | Tobi's Avatar
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    Its all about cost when you are sure that your hammer will destroy the WW anyway.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaBoom | Tobi View Post
    Its all about cost when you are sure that your hammer will destroy the WW anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    Off/Res
    Clubswinger 0.16
    Axeman 0.12245
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  16. #36
    Honoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton MemberHonoured Teuton Member KaBoom | Tobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    Mace just lemon, you lemon and your hammers built do also lemon. Why do you argue with me then?
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  17. #37
    Self-professed Genius SummerMcLovin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    As was shown by Tobi's table, axes will soon use less resources over time because of their lower wheat consumption. Remember that you need to feed your hammer for a long time if you start early enough to end up with a huge one.
    You'd be right if you could insta-build troops during end-game, but in the normal long timescale of hammer building axes are cheaper.

    Any opinions expressed on this forum are my own, as my position does not force me to say anything.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SummerMcLovin View Post
    As was shown by Tobi's table, axes will soon use less resources over time because of their lower wheat consumption. Remember that you need to feed your hammer for a long time if you start early enough to end up with a huge one.
    You'd be right if you could insta-build troops during end-game, but in the normal long timescale of hammer building axes are cheaper.
    Code:
    	Troops	WC		Res		Total		Attack		Attack/tRes
    Mace	532,997	1,918,789,200	133,249,250	2,052,038,450	21,319,880	0.01038961038961040000
    Axe	319,798	1,151,272,800	156,701,020	1,307,973,820	19,187,880	0.01466992665036670000
    That's some stats for constant building for 300 days
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  19. #39
    Self-professed Genius SummerMcLovin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse-Keyboard View Post
    That's some stats for constant building for 300 days
    I thought you were going for Clubs are better here? As you've shown, you're much cheaper going with Axes.

    Any opinions expressed on this forum are my own, as my position does not force me to say anything.
    If I didn't support the crew before, I wouldn't have joined them to support you and the domain.
    After going through my own posts, I see the only award I got runner-up for (Newcomer) doesn't even apply to me...

  20. #40
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    Made a mistake on the last stats (production costs should be doubled)
    Code:
    	Troops	WC		Res		Total		Attack		Attack/tRes
    Mace	532,997	1,918,789,200	266,498,500	2,185,287,700	21,319,880	0.00975609756097561000
    Axe	319,798	1,151,272,800	313,402,040	1,464,674,840	19,187,880	0.01310043668122270000
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