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Thread: A greener shade of green...

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    Stevieus's Avatar
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    Default A greener shade of green...

    I doubt that this hasn't been debated here before.
    But it's not on the first two pages and I can't be bothered to look back any further....


    Should cannabis be legalised?

    The pro camp claim that it's less harmful then alcohol. Physically and socially.
    Whilst legalisation would also give the Government something else to tax at a ridiculously high rate and make a nice bit of cash on the side.

    The against camp claim that it's a gateway to harder drugs and could possible have negative long term effects on mental health.

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    I don't do it and probably never will, but I'm for it being legalised.

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    99.999% male Saffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrothead View Post
    I don't do it and probably never will, but I'm for it being legalised.
    This ^
    I am quite open to the idea of some drugs being legalised, if alcohol was invented now it'd be a class C drug, and Cannibis has been found to be less harmful in smaller doses.
    The 'leads to harder drugs' might be true, but banning it does that too, atleast this way they can get help if needed.
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    To loosely quote something I heard somewhere, the most dangerous thing about weed is the possible criminal record if caught with it. It's so widespread now that they might as well legalise it, at least then the quality could be moderated. I think it probably would have been done already if it wasn't for the inevitable huge right-wing backlash.
    .............

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    ~epitome of grumpiness~ Prolific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific Member Lucidity's Avatar
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    I don't buy the "it's safer than alcohol" argument.

    Personally I'd not mind a world with no drugs for recreational use, legal or otherwise, from experience they don't end well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidity View Post
    I don't buy the "it's safer than alcohol" argument.
    Health wise.... It's still open for debate.
    Socially.... Alcohol contributes to countless times more violence, vandalism, public urination, sheep shaving, cow tipping, general anti-social behaviour.


    I have smoked cannabis in the distant past. It usually just made me chat a load of old codswollop, react to things at the speed of a one legged snail and be slightly more content then my usual content self. I wouldn't have been able to get lairy if I tried.
    It never made me sick (aside from one time when it was coupled with alcohol) and I never felt the after effects the morning after.


    I think that legalising it would benefit society overall.
    If it were sold through reputable sources, it would keep the kiddies away from the dealers, who invariably end up offering far worse things for sale.
    It would create real jobs. Someone'd need to grow it, prepare it, sell it, count the money etc etc.
    It could potentially generate a huge amount of tax.
    It would free up some police time.
    Something else.
    And something else.
    Last edited by Stevieus; 03 May 2011 at 09:40 PM.

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    ~epitome of grumpiness~ Prolific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific MemberProlific Member Lucidity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevieus View Post
    Socially.... Alcohol contributes to countless times more violence, vandalism, public urination, sheep shaving, cow tipping, general anti-social behaviour.
    Possibly, but my point is that that argument is like saying that burglary is acceptable when compared to murder.
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    Active MemberActive MemberActive Member Almost Crazy Davey's Avatar
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    Right, well this might surprise some but I favour legalisation of drugs. It's not that I particularly like them and it's not a civil liberties argument; I couldn't care less, it's a more pragmatic argument.

    Prohibition doesn't work - that's evident and has always been the case. If you legalise drugs at least you can have some degree of control over it. Government can effectively regulate the substance and allow it to be sold by licensed businesses. It means that businesses and jobs will be created as a result - it will mean more tax revenue for government; which should be spent on drug rehabilitation programmes. It also means taking the drugs out of the hands of criminals.

    Obviously you also have the civil rights argument but I don't really care, I'm not a liberal.
    Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidity View Post
    Possibly, but my point is that that argument is like saying that burglary is acceptable when compared to murder.
    I agree, drugs aren't the best way to go in my eyes. But, at least where I am anyway, I think it'd be safe to see the majority of people have done it, and would easily be able to get weed. It being illegal is just an inconvenience. It'd be much better if it was legal in my opinion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDRBm-qbQI I think this is a partly humourous way of putting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almost Crazy Davey View Post
    Prohibition doesn't work - that's evident and has always been the case. If you legalise drugs at least you can have some degree of control over it. Government can effectively regulate the substance and allow it to be sold by licensed businesses.
    How do you know ? You don't. If it was legalised it could be far worse than it is now.
    I need help, not ridicule!

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    Active MemberActive MemberActive Member Almost Crazy Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzy View Post
    How do you know ? You don't. If it was legalised it could be far worse than it is now.
    How do I know?

    Very simple: We have outlawed drugs yet they are still quite accessible in the United Kingdom - the very fact that they are accessible proves prohibition doesn't work. Coincidently, apparently it's very easy to get heroin in my town and it's about half the price than in London.
    Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almost Crazy Davey View Post
    How do I know?

    Very simple: We have outlawed drugs yet they are still quite accessible in the United Kingdom - the very fact that they are accessible proves prohibition doesn't work. Coincidently, apparently it's very easy to get heroin in my town and it's about half the price than in London.
    No it doesn't prove anything unfortunately as you don't have the alternative of legalised drugs to compare the present situation against.
    I need help, not ridicule!

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    Active MemberActive MemberActive Member Almost Crazy Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzy View Post
    No it doesn't prove anything unfortunately as you don't have the alternative of legalised drugs to compare the present situation against.
    Prohibition doesn't work. Proof? It is in place already and yet drugs are still available. That is proof Fizzy.

    Legalising drugs could make the situation worse, that's very possible, however, you cannot deny prohibition doesn't work when all the evidence suggests it doesn't work.
    Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

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    What proportion of people in this country have to be treated because of illegal drugs ? What proportion of people in this country have to be treated because of legal drugs ? Prohibition may well have prevented a lot of people having to undergo treatment for illnesses.
    I need help, not ridicule!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzy View Post
    What proportion of people in this country have to be treated because of illegal drugs ? What proportion of people in this country have to be treated because of legal drugs ? Prohibition may well have prevented a lot of people having to undergo treatment for illnesses.
    You can't reach that conclusion from that data. What if the legal drugs have stronger health effects?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzy View Post
    No it doesn't prove anything unfortunately as you don't have the alternative of legalised drugs to compare the present situation against.
    Agree with this for marijuana...

    If you're talking alcohol... we have both sides.

    I think (imo) the evidence shows that legalised drugs (alcohol, cigarettes, caffeine...) lead to massive markets but also bring severe health effects, deaths, etc...

    Economically speaking, i'd say it's probably a pro to legalise
    "morally" and health wise... negative

    personally? i don't care... i have tried it, i don't use it and already have enough addictions to battle.
    Anything I say should be taken lightly.

    I'm not serious in about 90% of my posts... seriously.

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    I'm one of those that thinks it should be legalised for "medical" reasons. General usage just for getting off your head I don't agree with, but there are small studies that have shown it to help with various things. Personally I've used it in the distant past as a pain relief, something which legal drugs couldn't do. For me the most addictive thing about it was the actual smoking. There would have to be alot more research involved though before it got to the stage it could be used medically

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    Quote Originally Posted by orville View Post
    You can't reach that conclusion from that data. What if the legal drugs have stronger health effects?
    I don't come to any conclusion with my post. Precisely the opposite. I was simply trying to point out that we don't know whether the existing prohibition is the better option or whether changing to a legalised system would make things better.

    Anyway given that:

    a) it would be political suicide
    b) it would be very hard to 'put the cat back in the bag'
    c) the previous loosening of the rules over cannabis didn't work in the eyes of the powerholders

    means its not going to happen

    What's more likely to happen is that the sources of traditional drugs will dry up pushing up the cost and limiting use but even this is going to be years and years away
    I need help, not ridicule!

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    Active MemberActive MemberActive Member Almost Crazy Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fizzy View Post
    What proportion of people in this country have to be treated because of illegal drugs ? What proportion of people in this country have to be treated because of legal drugs ? Prohibition may well have prevented a lot of people having to undergo treatment for illnesses.
    Well if you set strong regulation over the drugs you improve the quality of the substance and thus remove health threats from potentially dangerous chemicals that are mixed in with the substance.

    It also means you can put the tax revenue by means of profits, sin taxes and licensing into drug rehabilitation and education programmes.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly want drugs to be legalised and if I thought prohibition worked I would support it, however, prohibition doesn't work; it has never worked.
    Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

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    Well-Known MemberWell-Known MemberWell-Known MemberWell-Known Member Sleeping Dragon's Avatar
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    My reading of the sentencing guidance given to the Courts over the use of drugs is that effectively the use of cannabis is already legalised for medical reasons in that the guidance is this is an absolute defence and would lead to an absolute discharge - the guidance for the CPS is actually not to bring such prosecutions as they are not in the public interest. Case law includes examples such as pain relief for those with MS

    I had thought once there was a medical/mental health link concern regarding the use of cannabis but then it is interesting to observe that in 2000 when the labour government consulted the NHS as part of the formulation of the NHS Plan on what staff wanted to see in it, the most popular request was: to legalise cannabis. This resulted in the consultation results not being made widely public

    Unfortunately we can never be certain if prohibition or permission is the best means to control cannabis use and to protect those who are vulnerable from its abuse. It is not the sort of thing one would seek to test with a controlled trial for example

    I think I favour its legalisation because of the damage I have seen done to people of high standing and reputation when they have been identified doing something which is relatively harmless yet seen their careers destroyed whilst bullying and harassment in the workplace remains relatively unchecked and yet has far more serious consequences to society and to health

    I admit to taking cannabis but then in the context of being born in a culture when it was freely available when I was a child.

    I dont know whether that influences my views now. But whilst in favour of legalising, I find myself contradictorially not wanting to partake myself any more since I was six. Too much of beauty around me to enjoy without doing so through a drug-induced haze and no need to have hallucinations of a better time when the opportunities I was given as a growing child were so awesomely amazing plus to be frank my supply dried up when I moved to France eighteen years ago.

    But my memory is that I didnt mind that at all and had much to replace it that I prefer from my first experience of reading a book, to a new land, family and culture to inhale.

    I am not sure if this helps contribute to the debate but I think there is a mounting cost to prohibiting cannabis and to administering the law of that prohibition that seems unnecessary and could be avoided compared with other more serious acts that cause greater damage and yet are not unlawful

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    Quote Originally Posted by Almost Crazy Davey View Post
    Well if you set strong regulation over the drugs you improve the quality of the substance and thus remove health threats from potentially dangerous chemicals that are mixed in with the substance.
    You also increase the customer base for all the illegal suppliers that can probably undercut the legal price.
    Quote Originally Posted by Almost Crazy Davey View Post
    It also means you can put the tax revenue by means of profits, sin taxes and licensing into drug rehabilitation and education programmes.
    And you have large extra costs in setting this up. You still have to police the illegal suppilers and now you have the additional cost of systems to differentiate between legal and illegal supplies.
    I assume you would also want to set maximum limits on the amount people could buy. You would have to have systems to enforce this too. More cost.

    I'm not saying it's the wrong course of action. It may well be. But there are cons to the pros.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almost Crazy Davey View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly want drugs to be legalised and if I thought prohibition worked I would support it, however, prohibition doesn't work; it has never worked.
    Again you can't say prohibition doesn't work because there is no alternative to compare it against! Let me make it simple for you

    There are 2 options

    Prohibition / No Prohibition.

    Since in modern society we have always had prohibition we do not know if the alternative would be better or worse. If it's worse then prohibition does work. It limits the amount of 'damage' done to society. If it's better than prohibition then you could still argue that prohibition works but that there is a better option.

    I think you are confusing prohibition working with prohibition being 100% perfect. Many systems are in place that work without being 100% perfect.
    I need help, not ridicule!

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