Independence Day, it is.

[MartinJames]

Which post is drivel and which one sheer madness?

The 90% economists figure has been cited many times in the media, it's why people like Michael Gove said Britain had had enough of experts , and the leave campaign dismissed economists as 'irrelevant' . That the majority of graduates were likely to vote remain was largely undisputed too. So ill claim my posts were neither.

[powerobxxx]

I am glad we are out. Nothing to do with economy or intelligence more wanting to be in control of our own country , our laws, our people and which people would benefit the country if they wanted to live here. Problem with the degree brigade is they are all IQ and zero common sense, 200% mouth 300% ego 0% courage to enter the unknown. I am happy, if I have to eat straw for the next ten years I will still be happy

[MartinJames]

I am glad we are out. Nothing to do with economy or intelligence more wanting to be in control of our own country , our laws, our people and which people would benefit the country if they wanted to live here. Problem with the degree brigade is they are all IQ and zero common sense, 200% mouth 300% ego 0% courage to enter the unknown. I am happy, if I have to eat straw for the next ten years I will still be happy

Well most people would rather have a financially secure life than sit and eat straw telling everyone who'll listen how they took the country back. Never mind that most of the European laws regard establishing a common standard for goods to support trade, and the things they gave us that were immensely beneficial, human rights for a start. Never mind that we get more migration from outside of the eu and the government failed to lower that figure, or the massive net contribution of European immigration, or the brits abroad. He while we're at it lets forget that we got our way within the eu 80-90% of the time too. Congrats on taking back control glad we have your common sense to tell us that compromising on 10% of legislation in exchange for influence on the rest of Europe and traumatizing the economy and losing access to the eu job markets was worthwhile,one thing, who had control and who did you give it to?

[powerobxxx]

Well most people would rather have a financially secure life than sit and eat straw telling everyone who'll listen how they took the country back. Never mind that most of the European laws regard establishing a common standard for goods to support trade, and the things they gave us that were immensely beneficial, human rights for a start. Never mind that we get more migration from outside of the eu and the government failed to lower that figure, or the massive net contribution of European immigration, or the brits abroad. He while we're at it lets forget that we got our way within the eu 80-90% of the time too. Congrats on taking back control glad we have your common sense to tell us that compromising on 10% of legislation in exchange for influence on the rest of Europe and traumatizing the economy and losing access to the eu job markets was worthwhile,one thing, who had control and who did you give it to?

Migration from outside EU is vetted, controlled and is people deemed beneficial for the country, migration from withing the EU is just anybody , job or no job, criminal or not, murderer or rapist or not, EU law stops us preventing entry and then stops deportation. Human rights was instigated by Britain just after the war, workers rights are enhanced in UK, minimum wage here is £8+ and hour and in many EU countries is as low as 50p an hour or simply not there. UK will survive , then flourish, then dominate the manufacturing/financial sectors once again now the shackles of an insane amount of restrictions will be gone. The only continent with a lower growth is Antarctica

[MartinJames]

Migration from outside EU is vetted, controlled and is people deemed beneficial for the country, migration from withing the EU is just anybody , job or no job, criminal or not, murderer or rapist or not, EU law stops us preventing entry and then stops deportation. Human rights was instigated by Britain just after the war, workers rights are enhanced in UK, minimum wage here is £8+ and hour and in many EU countries is as low as 50p an hour or simply not there. UK will survive , then flourish, then dominate the manufacturing/financial sectors once again now the shackles of an insane amount of restrictions will be gone. The only continent with a lower growth is Antarctica

Migrants from the Eu can actually be blocked if they're deemed to be a current threat to the public, we did have that power. It's not totally unvetted. We had less rights pre eu , we actually adopted the European human rights act into our own law with a vote in parliament. Now any government could happily strip those rights. In fairness I don't think it'll be a total disaster, I just think we would have been better off. On the plus side we may well get a female pm for the first time since Thatcher.

[powerobxxx]

Migrants from the Eu can actually be blocked if they're deemed to be a current threat to the public, we did have that power. It's not totally unvetted. We had less rights pre eu , we actually adopted the European human rights act into our own law with a vote in parliament. Now any government could happily strip those rights. In fairness I don't think it'll be a total disaster, I just think we would have been better off. On the plus side we may well get a female pm for the first time since Thatcher.

It will take time, hard work, and plenty of bottle. No problem

[Trouble]

hmm

The economic predictions are rigged by remainiacs. How? they said we would trade less once we left the EU.
Bassically the IMF, notoriously corrupt biased and ineffective organisation stated we would be better in. Why?
For its own gain.
Once we leave EU we wont need them as much, infact we never really did need them in the first place. this worries them.
They'd rather keep emezling funds and pulling the wool over the eyes of ignorant no brains such as Mr MJ.

And yes they are considerably less educated.

Why?

They ignore the flaws of the EU. They cover it up with some basically "love" and the fear that leave voters are racists or something. I have yet to hear a decent argument from remain, every time they start something semi decent they cock it up massivelly by including either a huge flaw in there argument or by rushing of into lala land.

Like I haven't heard a single decent argument from them. Not 1.
The only one that came close was the Liverpool professor of law. He said it was law that we would remain sovereign even if we stayed in EU.
He also incorectly stated with some nice legal talk that:
We can leave whenever we want.
And that we retain the full powers of state.

*Laugh* and every one bought it. Nice. I had this thing battered around at me so many times it got really tiresome, especialyl when the same people spouted nonsense about how leave was racists or something and also saying things like "we are economically better of", "the eu is good for climate change" and " the eu is doing a great job!"

Mr liver pool prof Ignored this fact though: Force of arms carries the true power of the "law". Without its iron fist, the law cannot and does not function.
So if the EU has an army, and we don't. Then we cannot leave the EU. And eu will have power over us. Which was ignored by most remainaics.
As was teh fact that they plan a super state. NOt just any super state. A really in efficient one.
Thats why I voted leave, I did the reasearch, learnt about what the EU does really. And then I decided instead of a 4446, I wanted a 150% 15c.
So Leave it was!

Basically he is totally naive. EU has been pushing for super state for a long time, plans are announced post brexit. Was planned that we remain, and then we'd all be screwed.
Now the nations of europe are awakening, and it wont be long before the EU is gone, trampled ed into the much where it belongs.

EU is a total failure, good riddance!

Also I don't care if you have a degree in economics, economists are and always will be inferior mathematicians. As for politics students I have a 0 respect policy for them, I saw the best of you. Mr "ed milliband" and all the respect he had for things such as "orders of magnitude" "common sense" "basic math"
And I say to you now, I will not, cannot, and will never. Not ever, offer you a single ounce of respect towards your ability to do politics because of some ridiclous peice of paper that you got whilest doing a piss easy degree.
never. It is not a badge of pride.
I bet I could knock that thing flat in a week or less. Not that I'd respect the mark scheme either, I'd probably have to teach the teachers aswell.
This is main reason for my lack of respect for the "humanities" basically, every one who studies them is really dim. Esepeciaally the teachers and examiners. I learnt there stuff, and then half way through discovered that if I wanted to do it right I was going to have to teach them. AHHAA
Which is very dificult from the perspective of a student, so I abandoned their pathetic subjects. And I'm much the better for it. Never again will I be lectured by some half wit geography teacher.

There model is not to do with practical things, it is a made up human system over which they have given themselves complete and disgusting amounts of control without the consent or knowledge of the people.
They are smuchs.

The economic predictions cooked by the corrupt and vile remainiacs exists for one purpose only, to protect those economists and bankers working for the EU who without its lavish and inefficient spending would be completely without purpose and without a job.

The head of the IMF is emezling funds.

Ignore all of the above, only these 2 points are important:

2 arguments for remainiacs.
1.) It is good for workers rights. Utter trash and rubbish. Majority of worlds population is not in EU, therefore this point is void.
It was cooked up by labour and by corbyn as he tried to do his job, just like the 3 failures that proceeded him tried and failed. Every member of the labour party should be ashamed for demending this country with there corruption and slack attitude. They are a disgrace!

2.) It is economically better for us to stay. AHHAAHA A very very very bad peice of mathematics, cooked up once again by pro eu smuchs on the pay roll. This is a modern day example of "cooking the books" very much akin to the wire where the books are seismiclaly altered to con the every day voter.

Why?
Well the EU contains 16% of the worlds economy, less once we have left.
IN addition EU legislation not only limits our economic growth, but limits our ability to conduct free trade with the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the EU.

free migration lowers the amount of resources (yes resources not money get your head around that u economists smuchs.) (oh wait is it too hard for them? yes probably if its not linear mathematics dont even bother talking to a economists they will only try and lord over you telling you how they have mastered the "derivative" basically no better than A level maths.)

Free migration also lowers the pay for jobs by increase the supply of low skilled worker, cutting the economy right at the bottom.

Eu legistaltion is god awfull for our jobs.


This was sussefully busted by an economics group headed by a proffessor of applied economics at the university of cardif.

However it gained no traction, Because a) remain is totally ignorant
b) most of leave is even worse (puke) Or just too old to use a computure.. Or had already their minds made up.

The people it was intended for had already closed their minds, following their hearts and not there heads as so many of the sheep that surround us are bound to do.



Myth 3:
Eu is good for science. ON which planet do you live? The real scientific comunity exists not in europe, but throughout the world. EU spending is typically frivolous and inefficient. Yes inefficient. SO why would we trust them to do our science spending?
Not sure. There is not a reason, they just like making up reasons for why the Eu was great so tehy can continue with there ignorant little love story with the bankers.

Myth 4:
Eu is good for climate change.
Aahahahhahaha
ahahha
Laugh for long time, long long long long time.
Stop,

laugh some more.

Then some more.

Then stop and breath weekly "no".

This is also false, Eu goes at the pace of an elderdly dementure ridden snail that keeps forgetting where they are going.
People who say this, are the same as "jermy clarkson". Totaly ignorant scrubs with no perspective of teh magnitude of the issue we face.

EU is one again a barrier to development in this aspect. That said british politicians should bear equal responsibility of the blame.

Bassically I took a long time, and found both of these to also be false.

Which left remains main arguments in tatters.

However leave was not promising in its perspective candidates.
A few such as borris tentatively grasped towards the reality I was staring at.

Most focused on the basic issue of "immigration immigration immigration"
which is no doubt why most of remain is so hard headed and un eager to shift its position, for fear of appearing a xenophobe in the mists of there supposedly more "educated" but really just as dim upper class friends.


In any case I voted leave, and prepared to fight the EU in the aftermath pushing for a 2nd referendum on which the british people might finally be awoken to the reality of the situation.

However I was pleasantly surprised, and Britain voted to leave.

Creating the single most important political act of this century.

A free great Britain, now thats a good start .


@ MJ, Your so weak man. You tried to denounce me or something, giving that as your reason for not "wasting " your time.

AHah and then you tried to pull you weak degree on me, and this other bafoon wants to try and talk economics with me. I can take him and all of his ilk to school like little children.
Thats what they are. Children, hiding behind numbers they stole from there superiors.
Out of control and over powered. Time to bring the nerf gun to bear onto these bankers and economists I think. They are far far far too big for their tiny little brains.

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ps; some one please send me an economists, i want to have him (or her) for breakfast

[Yorkshire Yoda]

I have to say, the 'look at all those clever people' and the 'I'm clever too, because I've got a badge' argument really is the most pathetic.

If you believe in remain you have to articulate your reasons why. Just saying 'because those clever people said so', or 'I've got a degree' is puerile.

Show me why you have a degree, try to persuade me....

[MartinJames]

I have to say, the 'look at all those clever people' and the 'I'm clever too, because I've got a badge' argument really is the most pathetic.

If you believe in remain you have to articulate your reasons why. Just saying 'because those clever people said so', or 'I've got a degree' is puerile.

Show me why you have a degree, try to persuade me....

I discussed it enough at length before the polls closed , when it was relevant. Persuading at this point is pointless, which is why I won't bother. I mentioned the degree in response to an accusation of being poorly researched, the 'badge' as you put it demonstrates that I'm not poorly researched in the area.

Anyway the relevant discussion now is not in or out it is how do we make this work.

[MartinJames]

I dont want to waste my time persuading people to vote remain in a referendum that happened weeks ago. It's irrelevant, leave won. There are way better things to talk about , who should be the next prime minister for a start.

[Yorkshire Yoda]

If how to make it work and who will be next prime minister are the relevant subjects, why don't you talk about them?

[Trouble]

very sorry to say that remain is very ignortant.

Infact they are almost as dim as the people that they are so terrified of.

(Wild generalisation, you can be like "OH BUTS ITS NOT TRUE COS SOME OF US ARE SMART")

But generally speaking remain is dumb as hell

Yes lets get on with it, but lets just remember what remain voters voted for, since the problem of EU is still a problem for our friends overseas in Europe, and will continue to be unless it is dismantled.

A free britain is a good start, I'm glad we have till october to prepare our stuff, good.

Corbyn gets stronger.

Torries are weak.

I think Labour will win, and it will be a disaster if corbyn doesn't get the help he desperately needs.

He is not a strategists, he thinks steel is strategic, he is an imbecile with regards to the industries that should be developed.

[Yorkshire Yoda]

I've tried to facilitate debate, as evidenced by my posts.

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. This forum used to contain many intelligent people who were capable of engaging in a lively and passionate debate, and that is what I was hoping to get.

I'm extremely disappointed.

[MOD Elisa]

Ladies and Gents

Official we are not allowed to discuss political matters however this debate can remain providing we can keep the discussion on track, avoid insult and respect each others views, which ever way that you voted.

By all means explore both sides of the argument but any discussion of hate or racisim (even if its something discussed in the press), confrontation or insults will be removed to remain within TGHQ's policies.

If anyone is unhappy with the edits already carried out or the tone of someones post they should PM me and we can discuss the best course of action.

I am removing several snippets which seem to do little else than to attempt to pointedly provoke others into arguing. This thread has remained on condition that people show respect. In view of the heated subject matter, we need to try extra hard to do that. This means agreeing or disagreeing with peoples' points of view, not criticising people as individuals.

[silly sally]

I am removing several snippets which seem to do little else than to attempt to pointedly provoke others into arguing. This thread has remained on condition that people show respect. In view of the heated subject matter, we need to try extra hard to do that. This means agreeing or disagreeing with peoples' points of view, not criticising people as individuals.

"Boo Hiss". "Oh no he didn't" "Oh yes he did"."That's the way to do it, boink boink".

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I've tried to facilitate debate, as evidenced by my posts.

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. This forum used to contain many intelligent people who were capable of engaging in a lively and passionate debate, and that is what I was hoping to get.

I'm extremely disappointed.

I am sorry you are disappointed that there are no longer capable, engaging and passionate people on this forum, I am afraid to say the forum changed a long time ago and those people very rarely visit this forum. Anyway I enjoy having you around geeing us up and brightening our lives, so PM me if you want a debate and we will do it without mod intervention. Otherwise I am pleased to inform you of other forums where lively debate can be found on all kinds of subjects http://www.politicsforum.co.uk/forum/ Not sure how long this next one will be around for TeeHee... http://www.debatingeurope.eu/ Or a more gentle forum on grass cutting and womens wiring... dodgy ground I say https://www.avforums.com/forums/general-chat.38/ You may even find some ex-Travian players out there from when the game was strategic and required some skill to play, I remember it well. Anyway keep sharing the movie clips and music on the other thread because I love to watch and listen to them.

[Hawkery]

I also stated that offense is something we chose to feel. I did not make this up. "...being offended is often an strong emotional reaction - it clouds our judgement and makes us act less rationally. This is inherently bad, because while your judgement should always be informed by your emotions, they should ideally never determine it." Source.

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But generally speaking remain is dumb as hell

I see the level of debate hasn't changed much, though I can hardly preach...

Corbyn gets stronger.

Torries are weak.

I think Labour will win, and it will be a disaster if corbyn doesn't get the help he desperately needs.

He is not a strategists, he thinks steel is strategic, he is an imbecile with regards to the industries that should be developed.

I can't work out if you're for Corbyn and want him to increase the level of support he has, or against him and suggesting he needs 'help'? Corbyn isn't a strategist and that's why he won't win an election. Somehow, strategy got branded as this pro-establishment tried and tested term that's perceived as negatively as public relations and spin doctors. Strategy = having a plan and Corbyn's only plan is to talk about what matters to him and not what matters to the Labour Party or the majority of the majority of the 65 million people in this country.

His supporters want to see Labour take an anti-business approach as opposed to the pro-business approach we had under Blair. While I don't claim to support any 'ite' (Blairite / Corbynite), the moment Labour stops representing ALL taxpayers, including business, is the moment they are banished to the back benches for the next millennium. They'd be considered lucky to hold on to opposition status in this country. They talked about zero-hour contracts on the door step in 2015 with the message they wanted to help workers who were struggling. Voters instead heard 'anti-business'.

Whether we like it or not, we're a capitalist country and we are market driven. With that burden comes huge opportunities and often insurmountable risk. One man with a socialist agenda won't change that overnight without drastically reshaping the political, economical, social, technological and legal field. And when those fields get reshaped, there will always be winners and losers. Just like with capitalism and globalisation, there are winners and losers.

Alexander Betts has some insightful comments about how we can carry everyone along the path of globalisation. Redistribution in the market place isn't bad, but we ought to ensure support for those who suffer from it too.

Instead, Corbyn doesn't even have to seek nominations from his party because he's privileged enough to be leader. You won't see Momentum followers crying foul play and unfair privilege when it's their guy benefiting from it... But anyone else and whoaaaaa it's either a coup d'etat (MP's aren't that smart) or anti-Corbyn MP's are undercover Tories, both about as ridiculous as accusing an entire religion of falling under the extremism umbrella. And while I write this, the Conservative party are plotting which aspects of the political middle ground to expand in to. Labour move left and the Tories, pushed by UKIP on the right have an opportunity to catch the moderates, independents and centre-ground voters which became so much more appealing after the Lib Dems got a bloody nose from falling flat on their face.

[Yorkshire Yoda]

The 90% economists figure has been cited many times in the media, it's why people like Michael Gove said Britain had had enough of experts , and the leave campaign dismissed economists as 'irrelevant' .

Highly amusing that a poll indicated 80% of economists predicted a cut in the bank of England base rate to 1/4% this month. 80% of economists were wrong this month, weren't they?

[mhudson]

Since once again you are unable to follow the forum rules and have a mature discussions without resorting to insults, ignoring the advice on the moderation team and posting information that had been editied or removed this thread is now closed.